The last words in Chapter 2 of the First Epistle to the Corinthians are: "But we possess the mind of Christ." Or, more literally, "We have the mind of Christ." That is the whole thing, the whole thing. And I'll tell you, when you have the mind of Christ, it is also possible that the mind of Christ has you.

I can't help thinking of these 'avatars' that say they are God, and when you start to read their writings, they tell you, "I don't know why God made the world this way and I don't know why God made the world that way, and I don't know why God did this, and I don't.... "And I'm not going to try to convince any of the people who are out on some grand emotion that "Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain." It becomes very popular to take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain. You get great big newspaper headlines: "I'm no longer a Christian and I say yik yak yuk. Hurray!" "No it's wrong--yik, yak, yim."

"Now its "Hare Krishna," tomorrow it will be something else. And what this has to do with anything except a show, I don't know. Because Sri Krishna himself didn't go around saying "Hare Krishna." Jesus Christ said, "Do not make repetitions like the heathens, but pray this way." Now we don't look at that, we skip those words.

The whole question is having the mind of Christ, and I want to show you some differences, I hope, between that and philosophy. If you are a philosopher (and it doesn't make any difference what school of philosophy you belong to) they use all the same methodology. "I believe that the world is more than material," so, a philosopher starts a book. "Kant in Chapter 6, Book 3 said this." And he copies this off. "Hegel in Book 13.... --"And copies that off. "Spencer in Book 7," and copies that off. "Even Darwin said...." and he copies that off. Yes. All philosophers do this. They copy a little bit from this, this, and this. And they think they're proving something. They don't take the whole of this man's mind or the whole of that man's mind. You might as well take the dictionary and put some words together. And this is called thinking. Oh yes, this is called thinking.

I had a lot of trouble with some of the classes in philosophy because when we came to existentialism, a philosophy I said I couldn't believe in because it's too hard to spell, they began discussing 'nature.' I was in a very bad position. I've been a woodsman. I've been a land clearer. I've done work in zoology. I've done work in bacteriology. I've done work in organic chemistry. I've done work in soil chemistry. I couldn't understand what they meant by 'nature.' It had no relation whatsoever to either my subjective or my objective experiences. This was the dominant thing. When you get up and say, "What do you mean by 'nature'?" The answer is, "Who are you?" I mean really. Really. This is what is given us today in the philosophies. You quote from this one and that one exactly what you want. I can tell you, no matter what you believe in, from pornography to mysticism, if you use this method, you can prove anything, because you'll find someplace, somewhere, somebody said something that you like.

I'm not talking against this. I'm talking about the fact that such an idea as the possession of the mind of Christ doesn't even occur. Before we get through with St. Paul, I hope to show you that when he talks about spiritual gifts it comes out directly from having this universal mind.

I saw a book once called "The Cosmic Christ." The title pleases me; I don't care about the details. Father Merton, who died recently, was on his way to see me when he passed away. Some of his friends have been trying to keep in touch, finding out what I'm doing. I can tell you one thing: When you try to enforce the Will of God on earth, God comes to your help. My last letters are going to be very lovingly received, because the audiences get larger, the quality of people that come goes up, and the collections get larger. Very convincing that last. That's the clincher. I'm asked by so many people to contribute to something, and I wonder why they don't try to find out what God wants. "Thy Will be done." Why don't they try to find out? And maybe if you're doing right before God, God does right before you.

Behind this there's this whole attitude of mind, and this is what I said Paul had. It's time to stop looking and being critical, because no matter who writes what, you can find some criticism. And when you read the questionable translations, the criticisms become much easier. Much easier. So we want to try to find out what Paul was trying to teach us and give us when he gave us this Epistle to the Corinthians.

"And I, brethren, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as to fleshly persons, as to babes in Christ."

That is, he couldn't speak spiritually to the other persons. I told you that when he went to the Romans, he was meeting people at a lower level. So I mentioned that when we find inconsistencies we should remember the type of people to whom he was speaking. If you go and speak at a grammar school, a high school, a university, and to college graduates, you're not going to be speaking the same way. And that's not your fault. You have to communicate. I believe St. Paul was far more capable of communicating than any of the modern professors of what they call "communication." I haven't got the slightest idea what they are talking about.

"Milk I gave you-not solid food; for you were not then able; nor indeed, are you even now able; because you are still fleshly. For whereas envy and strife exist among you, are you not fleshly and walk according to man?"

This is one of the things I've been challenging in the Muslim religion. Not criticizing the scriptures. Mohammed said alcohol was two-thirds bad and one-third good. He said envy was 100 per cent bad. You can be a good Muslim and have all the envy you want, including what's going on right now. You can do that. All the parties in Palestine can have all the envy they want. All the religions teach against it and they all practice it. What does it mean? And we talk about "peace and justice."

What is the difference between peace and justice, peace and raping, peace and murder, or peace and ethnocide? What is the difference? Got any idea? "Peace and justice!" As long as we talk about 'peace and justice' we're never going to have peace because we haven't got the slightest idea what justice is. And if we practice justice, we're going to act differently to everybody according to the circumstances. A boy seven years old isn't punished the same way as one seventeen. And one seventeen isn't the same as one thirty-seven. So there isn't any external code. How are you going to find peace? I'll give one idea here: "We have the mind of Christ!" Then we'll know something about peace.

Next Paul talks about the division, about having different spiritual teachers, which I'll skip. He says different spiritual teachers shouldn't separate you. So he explains,

"For we are God's co-workers."

What does that mean, we are God's co-workers? How do we know we are God's co-workers? One answer is "We have the mind of Christ." Then we'll feel differently and know differently. We're not God's co-workers if we work for a particular end for a particular group.

In my poem that Christ gave to me, He made it very clear. He was not of the right or the left or the center, and He was not against any of them. Because they belong to Him, not He to them. They are wrong when they claim He is on their side. He is on all sides and all sides are on Him. Not any particular side. "God made all mankind in His image." ALL. And while ethically there may be a right and wrong, spiritually this has nothing to do with it. As long as we have breath, and as long as we have blood, we may be spiritual, no matter what ideas we may have or what our behavior may be. "Though our sins may be red as scarlet, they can be made white as snow." This is the difference between ethics and philosophy on the one hand, and spirituality on the other. As long as we are alive, we have spirituality in us.

"You are God's field; you are God's building."

In Sufism we teach, "This is not my body, this is the Temple of God." A point on which St. Paul will absolutely agree. We have other references to that, one of which I had copied. There are plenty of them; Ch. VI:I 9-"Know you not that your body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which you have of God, and you are not your own?"

In some other place St. Paul says, "I die daily." I'm going to look that up more often. Here I am running along, week to week, month to month, year to year, with the same vitality and the same nasty voice, and so on, and how come? I don't know anything, even Yoga, that will do this. But when you are able to die daily, that's Yoga. I tell you, that's Yoga! Not taking certain exercises, not getting up and saying some phrase over and over again. Nothing happens but you're so delighted with it, and you're sure you're charming and are pleasing God.

But when you die daily, you can be sure you are doing what God wants. Give us this daily bread. And When Mohammed lived and there was food left over at the end of the day, he thought he had done something wrong. Each day was itself. And so, even if only for the sake of romance and adventure, I'm standing for Paul. It might be worth trying. The other things don't always succeed. Maybe a few of them do, but I haven't found many. It might be well to try this. And when you start trying this, something may happen.

"According to that favor of God having been imparted to me, as a skillful architect, I have laid a foundation, and another person is building up; but let each one see how he builds up."

The spirit passes from Teacher to pupil and then they spread. Look at those who have gone away from here. Father has given them, or Father is the instrument of God that gives to them. So they go to another place and start doing the same things, and this is Grace, not ability, and most of them know it. Grace works through them, and they then seem to have ability. It's like ability, but it's the Divine Grace.

"For no one can lay another foundation besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

This is the basis on which you're working. I don't think I have to comment on that.

"And if, on this foundation, any one build up gold, silver, costly stones; wood, hay straw; the work of each will become manifest; for the day will show it, because it is revealed by Fire; and so every one's work, whatever it is, the same fire will prove. If the work of any one remain, which he build up, he will receive a recompense."

Some organizations are floundering because they take the scriptures to prove what they believe. When the scripture teaches something they don't believe, they hide it. I went to a Sunday School almost 70 years ago, before they had these Sunday School books, so we'd just take up the Bible and read chapter, chapter, chapter, chapter, chapter. And you had to read the whole Bible before you could graduate. But now they have a system. If you examine the systems you'd be surprised at how much is never used, how much is skipped. Anything which would offend somebody isn't used at all. So instead of having to go through the scripture, you go through carefully selected things.

In addition to that, you have mistranslations. In the last chapter we noted where the word psychichos is translated as meaning animal or unspiritual. When this happens you can't understand the scriptures at all. And we were talking about the large percentage of people who have had psychic experience.

But, of course, you also can have spiritual experience. I remember when I was down in South Carolina, I went around to see how many people had spiritual experience and I found at least one in five. The astounding result was that they all quit the church. They thought other people would look upon them as mad. So they didn't go to church any more, and emotional religion became dominant. But when the adherent changes, another emotional religion is dominant, and then you change to another emotional religion. And you haven't reached the stage that Paul wished people to reach.

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it has been written, 'he captures the wise in their craftiness.' And again, 'the Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are vain.' Let no one boast in men; for all things are yours."

I've written this also to Muslims. If you read "The Arabian Nights" (I don't expect you to have read the Koran) it says, "There is no power nor might save in Allah." But if you meet a good Muslim, he is very proud of his ancestry. I don't know what being proud of your ancestry has to do with anything. I can boast mockingly about my personality--my forebears--that we're all illegitimate, the whole string of us. But what is there in your ancestry that is so wonderful? This proves then the Jewish teaching: Centuries ago some Jews were prophets, so all Jews must be saints.

What has this got to do with anything? As I started telling you, if we had the history of the Indian peoples of America, the percentage of near prophets was probably much higher, because they had that kind of religion. They didn't have writing. They didn't think it was important. They felt it didn't make any difference how great an ancestor was: It's what experience a man himself had in relation to God. Now we have a church, an American church of American Indians, and they claim that they have means of Divine experience. It's at a low level, but it's real! God has spoken to them--not yet as wisdom, but he has spoken something. We should realize that, because as Paul himself says, "In God we live and move and have our being."

"Let a man thus esteem us as ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God, But moreover, it is required in stewards that every one should be found faithful. Therefore to me it is of very little importance that I should be condemned by you, or by a human day of Judgement; because I do not even condemn myself."

Now let the Protestants answer: "I do not even condemn myself." Who started this condemning? Why? Don't worry, the Muslims are even better at this than the Christians. Who started this condemning? Why is it so important? The young people begin to realize that when Christ, or the Bible, or any other place, shows that people, that humanity, is essentially divine, and shows ways to find out this divinity and to build it up, then there is life. There is hope. There is love. There is joy. Not simply the words, but the realities from which these words come.

This is much more what I call the restoration than when Mary Baker Eddy said she'd restored Christianity, or even Swedenborg coming and giving us very profound things. Because you are growing, you are receiving, you are living. Eternity is in you right here and now without being separate. And yet each one of you remains himself or herself. We don't have to become like each other. We have to become our fructification or blossoming of ourselves. Then we are realizing the benefit of spirituality, as if God had to come and express himself infinitely to perfection, he has to manifest through every one of us. Then we understand what is said here, "Know ye not that the body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you?" When we do this we have come to a great place.

I'm going to stop at this point for questions. I'm not going to try and complete this whole book quickly. I'm not going to try it slowly, but to do it with some understanding.

Q.-When I asked you about repetitions, you pointed out that Jesus said not to use vain repetitions, and so do you, therefore, say that the "Hare Krishna" mantram is a vain repetition?

A.-Yes, it is vain until it produces an effect in the personality. It can sink in and be not vain. My Indian teacher told me a mantram depends not on its words, but on the spiritual state of the person who gave you those words.

Q.-Not on the person who uses it?

A.-Not on the person, but on the state of the person who told you to use it. Anyone can go around saying anything whatsoever. For example, there was a sacred phrase of the Egyptians and I often humorously say--"We don't believe in mantrams, Rah! Rah! Rah!" Because the origin of this yell was a mantram in Egyptian. But you see, it hasn't that cosmic effect because it isn't given to us by a developed person. It's just become a popular thing.

Q.-Well, you see, I was a bit confused by this, because when I look at the Hare Krishna people, I've always seen a lot of good there.

A.-I see a lot of good in the Hare Krishna people, and I see a lot of good in other people. But much of the time they become emotional and they grab people in the street and they demand money.

Q.-Well, it's true.

A.-Now some of the people in India are asking money from me and I'm going to write them: "If you have access to God, then why hasn't he seen that you're looked after?"

Q.-I've seen this in some of the newer students, but the people I've known there a while aren't like that.

A.-Well, very good! Then I will accept any, because I'm not going to condemn them. Some of my best friends, remember, are Hindus, who are God-realized people. But the difference with Christianity, with all its faults, (and I'm not saying anything against Hinduism with all its virtues) has more consideration of human beings than the other people have. They think if they get there, that's all that is important. And this is the thing. They haven't abolished caste, even when they abolish it verbally or legally, it remains in attitudes. And when they do, they are going to go everywhere, but they haven't yet. And the monk should take consideration of the person to whom he comes. From whom are you demanding? Why are you demanding? What right have you got to demand from somebody else? Where did you get the authority to demand from somebody else?

Now Buddha had an excellent way of demanding from others. With humility. And Christ told the same story. "Go and shake off the dust of your shoes if people turn you away." That teaching Christ and Buddha had together. Same teaching. And the Dervishes whom I knew had that same teaching. You never demand if you want help for yourself. "Ask and you shall receive." But never demand. See this thing--their attitude. Now if you look at them closely, or others--I've said I see very little difference between them and the Holy Rollers when I look at the emotional side--the psychic side dominates and has become wholly emotional. The Bhagaved Gita has teachings of different grades of consciousness and it says "beware of ahankara and manas," which is mind and ego. When you get the complete feeling, if you get that feeling, I wouldn't even argue if the mind of Krishna and the mind of Christ are the same or different. But they are both in their own way, transcendental. And in Sufism we are taught if anybody gives you anything, you must thank them and recognize them. Don't go up and say praise God. Thank that person and give consideration to that person as the instrument of God.

Q.-Well if a person gives you a gift, and you thank God for that gift, don't you recognize that that person is a channel of God?

A.-Sometimes, no. I worked with a man one time, and every time he did anybody a favor he said, "Haven't you got any consideration? can't you thank me?" And when they did him a favor, "God always looks after me."

Q.-Last week you spoke of the three bodies, the physical, psychic and spiritual. Can you say soul for psychic?

A.-Yes, soul, means psychic. Psyche.

Q.-Well, it seems to me in some place you made a point that we misunderstood psychichos. There's some point I remember a translator of St. Paul saying there are two bodies, the physical and the spiritual. Could they be that one because they didn't understand?

A.-They call it natural and they confuse it by calling it natural. They don't call it physical, they call it natural.

Q.-So, St. Paul might have said there's three and....

A.-He did say it and we're coming to that in a later chapter, I think especially Chapter 15.

Q.-They just lumped the two together?

A.-Yeah, lumping. We'll come to that in a later chapter. If necessary I may even skip and give that in an early lecture so we can understand this. Just like I started in with sections from Chapters 13 and 14, not from the beginning. Yes--to understand this. And the more we understand this, the better we're going to be. But this requires prayer, meditation, blessing. Yes, with some intellectuality, but if you keep the intellectual dominant, then you go into the philosophy which I've been warning you about from the beginning.

You know, I was at the Edgar Cayce School, and they have a sign up there--"Prayer is man speaking to God and meditation is God speaking to man." So you went to prayer--"Oh God, give us this; give us this; give us this; give us this. Amen." Then you went to meditation--" Meditation is a wonderful thing; we gain so many things by meditation; if we only would meditate instead of talking and only nyah, nyah, nyah...we'd get into the Kingdom of God. Now this I want to impress on you if we'd only stop talking and stop thinking blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah.... "And three times as many words were said in the meditation as were said in prayer. Yes. And I said, "When are we going to listen to God?" Complaint. They wanted to kick me out of the place. I mean this; this really happened. And when I heard somebody has been put on silence here, for a reason, that is wonderful! Then there's a chance for God to speak to them. After a while, if you can listen to God in silence, you can hear him all the time. But you have to do that first. If you don't do that, you probably won't ever listen, unless you have a tragedy.

A tragedy is different. I don't urge people to seek to have the tragedy St. Paul had or something of the kind or others; it can come that way too, and then you really get a wack. And it's possible. But then after a while you see. All religions teach hearing as a virtue. Whoops. I mean the founders of all religions; the devil with all religions. In 'religion' hearing is unimportant. And when you start listening, you'll find out that God is speaking to you all the time, but you're attuned to different levels. And when you start hearing, you'll be able to help yourself and everybody else. Can you understand that?

Even in my "Rejected Avatar," or even in St. Paul here, dealing with the spiritual, he's not with the Divine. But when you have the mind of Christ, you are in the Divine, which enables you to understand the spiritual. And the spiritual enables you to understand the mental, the emotional and the physical. Because only the Divine will enable you to understand the spiritual. We were made higher than angels, although the scripture says we were made a little lower than angels, that's a mistranslation: the scripture doesn't say that at all. It says you were made a little lower than Elohim.

Q.-What's the difference there?

A.-Elohim means God, not angels!

Q.-So they mistranslated that?

A.-Yes. It shows some very interesting things. You know, the Christians mistranslated the Bible so when the Jews had to translate from Hebrew into European languages, they didn't dare offend the Christians. So we're stuck. But it doesn't matter. That's why you have to get back, because otherwise what would Father be doing? You'd only be starting a new sectarianism, a new division.

You have to get back to purity, clarity. Can you understand that? And I'm sure whatever else you have, you have a lot more purity and clarity than I've seen in almost all places. If you want a measuring stick, and I'm not going to advise you to have one, we could put out all the lights. Close your eyes or open your eyes and see how much light you see. And no matter how little you see it will be a lot more than you'll find anywhere else. Sure. Any other questions? These are good questions.

Q.-Can that visual measuring stick be used in other places?

A.-It can always be used, if you want to use it that way. You can see it and then you find out after a while that you live in a universe of Light. Yes?

Q.-Earlier someone asked a question in terms of the colors that one sees when one closes ones eyes. And I didn't think the answer was given at that time. And I haven't heard it since.

A.-Yes, very good, that's very good. If you went to a class in astronomy and the teacher didn't answer your question in biology, he'd be quite in order. If you went to a class in history and the teacher didn't answer a question in physiology, he'd be quite in order. I'm trying to give this Scripture out; I'm not trying to explain the whole universe. Any other questions? Okay, then let's return for a moment to Chapter 4.

"You are already filled! you are already enriched! you have reigned without us! and I wish, indeed, you did reign, that we also might reign with you. For I think God has exhibited to the world, both to angels and men."

Now how many Christians would want to admit that they've been made a spectacle to angels. That's exactly what I've been trying to teach you. The spiritual man is above angels as well as the rest of humanity. Angels are only half perfect; they cannot ask questions, they can't analyze, they can't name. They reflect Light, that's only one part of it. God made heavens and earth. They can reflect the heavens but not the earth; man can reflect both heavens and earth.

And now when we come to the ultramicroscope we find out that the world was made of functions of light and color!

"To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and are in want of clothing; we are buffeted about, and are homeless; and we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted we endure; being calumniated we expostulate; we are become as the purgetions of the world, the refuse of all things till now.

I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I admonish you. For though you may have myriads of leaders in Christ, yet not many Fathers; for in Christ I begot you through the Glad Tidings."

In Greek there is the word evangelios, and this means that you had an experience which made you aware of the cosmos and its wisdom. And after a while these things become less and less important to you.

One of the things that happened at the time they had the riots in San Francisco a few years ago, and I keep on repeating it, was this. The riots were especially among the Negroes. Two groups of three boys went there, and were entirely successful in breathing peace, both in the Fillmore and at Hunter's Point. Everybody else was just flopping all over. It was really wonderful, really marvelous. All they had was faith. I can assure you I see many people today that are more spiritually advanced than any of the six that went out at that time. Yet that's what happened. That's what happened.

I think more will be done and is being done now. Because it is inner faith that has enabled many of you to succeed when you go out into the unknown, so to speak, and suddenly help comes to you.

I'm in tough trouble now, because I'm not able to assimilate the opportunities, the offerings, the invitations I get. I'm short on secretaries and I'm short on one thing we can't get rid of-there's only so much can be done in one day. But after a while you find that every hour, and maybe even every breath offers you a blessing, but you don't need more than that. So I am not of my own will bringing out the wisdom of the scriptures here, now. I think if you feel that sense, it will be of great importance to you and in your workings.

And you won't forget that knowing Paul and being Paul, you still have the mind of Christ to consider, with which to function. When you do that, several things will happen that are like miracles, and other things that are like wonders.

I have been made a very interesting invitation. Something I was refused before when I wanted it. Now I don't want it and it's offered to me. And that is: to go to the dancing class of my girl disciples. I wished to organize this and they said, "No, we can do it without you." So I didn't pay any attention. Now they are inviting me. If you understand this, you'll understand things in the scriptures, too. It's easy for fellows to work with fellows. It's easy for fellows to get to work with girls. It's easy for girls to work with fellows. But when the question of girls working with girls come in, it's not always easy. But once you.accomplish it, you've got something very big.

All the work in the dancing class is using sacred phrases for dances. They do things beautifully, and I want to do more because my work is to make prayers into dances. We did it last night at a terrific rate. Very suddenly. I'm still a little bit under the influence of what happened because if God wishes to let me see Him, instead of hear Him, I can't help it.

I don't see God, as such, but I see the Divine Will coming in the ways of different arts and I see the other people doing the same thing. And as this thing becomes clearer and clearer, then we build up the spiritual arts. Arts, plural, not one. It's not just poetry. It's not just singing. It can be definitely architecture, sculpture, painting, anything.

"But I will come to you soon if the Lord will, and I will know, not the word, but the power of those who are puffed up. For the Kingdom of God is not in word but in power. What do you wish? that I come to you with a rod, or in Love, and in a spirit of meekness."

This is a funny thing, because the greatest teaching I ever learned was peace is power. Peace is power. Not force, but peace. Not "peace with justice." Not peace with, but Peace. Peace is of a different level. Justice you can have in the psychic world. Peace you have in the spiritual world. They're not the same at all.

I said I would not necessarily give you this in sequential order, but in an order that you might understand Paul's teachings and the cosmos which he is expressing. Because it is the same truth which is behind every religion. Behind the religions, but not in the expression of religions. We do this not for the sake of understanding religion, but for the sake of understanding ourselves.

I made a humorous remark in one of my classes when I said I was going to speak on metasex. Oh, yes, I will. But it will be part of what I would call 'metapsychology.' What is metapsychology? It means psychology from the standpoint of spiritual awakening, not trying to abolish anything but to perfect. "I have not come to destroy, but to fulfill." If we keep this in front of us, we can all go forward and be in praise of something and get rid of fear. If I were to pursue this subject further here, or had to act as a metapsychologist, I would deal with those who have fear, who have weaknesses and see what can be done.

The difference, if you can call it that, between my work and the work here, is that I have been trained in the science of breath. Paul Brunton, who was one of my teachers, taught three ways to spiritual awakening: The way of breath, the way of heart, and the way of light, or glance, which I sometimes use. But not a different psychology, not a different philosophy, and certainly not a different theology. I have no intention of having any of you change what you believe. But build something which can made that firmer--by right breathing, by right feeling, and by right understanding of the light which is within you and in which you are. Then we will have the mind of Christ and will be able to function.

I say this with all respect to our Hare Kirshna friends who can do the same thing, if they would. If they would do what Kirshna did, or you would do what Christ did, or some Buddhists would do what Buddha did, we would have a different world. Not what we believe. I can tell you, I'm not interested in what you believe. I'm interested in "In the beginning, God." "In the beginning was the Word," and so on.

Q.-You spoke of peace, not peace with and peace not even with justice, saying that peace was on the spiritual and justice was on the psychic plane. Will you elaborate on that?

A.-Yes, because what we call 'justice' is a thought, not a revelation. How many of these people that talk "Peace and justice" even accept the Ten commandments? And how many of them, going deeper, will accept the Sermon on the Mount? If we have peace defying everything in the Sermon on the Mount we call it "Peace with Justice." I haven't the slightest idea what's meant.

Q.-Isn't God pretty just?

A.-What is meant by 'just?'

Q.-I don't know.

A.-Well, I don't either. But I would say there is a form of justice in the Ten Commandments. And I would say there is another form of justice in Isaiah, another form of justice in the Gospel of Matthew, and there's still another form of justice in the Gospel of St. Thomas, which is transcendental. So when you use the word 'justice' it's very difficult to know what is meant. As I said before, if you have a group of seven-year-old boys, or seventeen-year-old boys, or thirty-seven-year-old men, the justice doesn't mean the same thing.

Q.-But doesn't Divine Justice, shall we say, filter down over all the others?

A.-Divinity filters down over everything, but I don't know why you'd necessarily use the word 'justice' there.

Q.-I don't know, it just struck me to.

A.-Divinity transcends words. The highest thing is love, light, and perfect wisdom. This may or may not be justice as we understand it. Justice is the scales. St. Augustine failed in his effort to eradicate what they called Manicheanism, which was dualistic. He failed, and this is one of the greatest tragedies that happened to Christianity. The Manichean teachings come in, despite St. Augustine's effort. So, if you would go and look at the Bible, and they gave you a discipline to do this, and copy down how many times the word justice is used and you recorded them, you'd find a very interesting thing, compared to some other things. If you were a mother and in a group of children you had to use love, you'd do things that at times didn't seem very just, but your love would tell you what to do.

Q.-Am I to understand that karma is justice or karma is something different?

A.-Karma is something different from justice. Karma adjusts when justice hasn't taken place. I could quote several other places in St. Paul, but I don't know if they are in this gospel or other ones. I don't want to jump all over the place. "The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made ye free from the law of sin ond death, "which is to say free from karma.

Q.-In other words, if you followed Christ....

A.-You'd be transcendent of karma.

Q.-But if you followed everything Christ taught, and then if you go out and steal a grapefruit, would that mean you'd be subject to karma again?

A.-If you were hungry and you stole the grapefruit, I assure you there would be no karma. I remember one time, I tried to walk from Los Angeles to Whittier. When I got two miles from Whittier the road was closed. I'd walked 11 miles, and it was a hot night. And when I saw the road was closed and I'd have to make a great walk around, God knows how many miles, I all but fainted. But you see, Allah was just, he had me faint under a lemon tree, not a grapefruit tree, and I took some lemons. They didn't belong to me, but I took some lemons. I assure you, I felt so good right away, I covered the rest of that time praising God and getting home early. And two or three other times in my life where I fainted there was always help right there.