Jesus Christ said not to trust the Pharisees and the Scribes. If you read the newspapers, you know, we've done nothing but that. And the Pharisees and the Scribes are destroying our culture and I don't know whether we can stop them.

We might say today we have three kinds of external enemies. They're not as important as the internal enemies, but it's more pleasurable to talk about the external enemies. One type of external enemies is the so-called right wingers. I don't know what that means. I've not read any good thing about it. The "right" started because certain deputies at the time of the French Revolution sat in a certain place in the French Parliament. And no matter what Allah-God did before that time it doesn't matter; everything is now determined by the way those French deputies sat in that Parliament. And if you don't agree and fit in with the way those French deputies sat, you don't fit into our culture. But all I remember those French deputies doing was condemning each other to death. But, nevertheless, we have to fit in, and our whole culture is based on our relation to the way those French deputies started.

And even though, in the course of nearly two centuries, we've progressed in all kinds of directions, when it comes to classifications, our society is in the hands of what I call the worst of all the enemies, the Scribes and the Pharisees. If you don't fit in with the Scribes and the Pharisees, you're absolutely damned. Only this isn't so. Because the Scribes and the Pharisees have gone around to broadcast that everybody is to be blamed for all the pollution and everything else. Everybody. The man who doesn't smoke or the man who smokes the wrong kind of cigarettes is equally to blame with the man who poisons thousands. All equally to blame, according to the commentators. But the world isn't so bad. The other day I read an article that mercury poisoning was actually the cause of the pollution in Lake Erie, which I am now spelling with a double 'e'. And they're going ahead and trying to stop some of the people who do actual mercury poisoning. Of course, "we're all to blame. We're all to blame." This is the Scribe and Pharisee culture.

And when you go the new left, it proves what I just said. They have something else called the weathermen. If they aren't the reincarnation of those French deputies, I don't know who are. For their solution to all problems is to kill everybody that disagrees with them. As if that solved any problem. But at the same time, I do see a lot of hope.

And the third type of enemy is the crab. That is, when you get a new set of emotions by going sideways, you're "saved." I'm not fooling; this is one of the most serious things there is. You have Christ-consciousness if you cut off your hair and put on some kind of clothing that's not worn anywhere, particular in the world and which Sri Krishna had the sense never to wear himself, and run around saying HARE KRISHNA and bump into people and pigeon-hole them. If you do this you have 'Christ-consciousness.'

And if I got real serious-and I will get real serious and maybe I'm too serious, even in spite of all this whimsy-I would quote from the Bible:

"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord, thy God, in vain."

We get around this in two or three ways. One is by taking the Name of God at all. And the second is to go to the other extreme and make travesties about it. If you asked me whom I considered worse... well, I will say with one exception that I see very little difference between a Manson and those people who run around yelling Krishna-consciousness.

Jesus said "Fear not those who condemn the body, but those who condemn the body and soul with hell-fire." And that's what they're actually doing.

You know, I'm afraid even to use it, the word Jesus Christ, Yet I have to use it because it is in the text here sometimes with meaning. It is used by St. Paul. Now there's one lesson I learned from Sufism, and that is-you can't separate God from His attributes, and so many have separated Jesus Christ from his attributes. In the end I think our culture is going to realize this and somebody will come. As much as I don't hold with Billy Graham, there may be some Billy Graham people who would go around and take some of these people and give them a good kind of baptism, which they badly need. We can't pass a law that "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord, thy God in vain." But the low degree to which emotion can take everything... and think they've got God.

And they are going in the opposite direction. Because whatever Christ represented, I think some of us will agree, he represented Love. Some of us will agree he represented Compassion. Some of us will agree he represents feeling, foresight, human consideration, refusing to feast when others were starving, and a lot of things of that nature. But we also want to see how far we can progress in that direction.

Now St. Paul started along saying nix, and God came along and said, "What do you mean nix?" And he was doing what a lot of editors do--trying to find the popular side and yell. And so he was taking the popular side and yelling. But he had one misfortune. He never closed his ears; he never closed his eyes; and the testimony of his ears and eyes made him look in another direction. And he felt he'd really found the direction, and he would go out into the world.

Now we have another consideration. Suppose you were to go to a hospital. You'd probably find the tuberculosis ward, and the cancer ward, and people with broken limbs, and the maternity ward, and so on. And you'd have to go to each one of these wards and give a different type of treatment. So St. Paul went to different cities, and according to the nature of the city and the diseases thereof, he gave different treatments. Of course, you can come along and read all his books and say, well, I found an inconsistency in the Epistle to the Romans and the Epistle to the Corinthians, and the Epistle to the Ephesians, and the Epistle to the.... Of course you will find inconsistencies, because he was visiting different wards in the universal hospital and he was giving each the medicines they particularly needed.

I mean, in Romans he was finding a modern Sodom and Gomorrah. We've got Sodom and Gomorrah again. It's all right now; it's legal. And, consequently, we have to consider each one of these as an attempt to cure certain diseases. When in Corinthians, he is not only negative, he is positive. And he is trying to show the spiritual life, but not by using this word spiritual as a contrast term. You know, you go to one church and you hear "spiritual is not material... pass the collection plate around."

It isn't that at all. The spiritual is that which is all embracing and I think next I may check on the word 'Catholic.' Consequently, where we must look now (and I'm going to be a little dogmatic about it) is to see that St. Paul going to the Corinthians was a super doctor going to people with a certain type of disease. And he was trying both to correct the disease--that was the first step--but also to elevate them so that they wouldn't have any more disease and could go out and help others.

The Epistle to the Corinthians--I'm going to start out with the first one, although I may go on in the future with subject matter from others. But I want to warn you that I've got the Epistle to the Corinthians pretty well in my consciousness and this is what I hope to give to you.

It says here:

"Paul, called an Apostle of Jesus Christ through the Will of God...."

You now become an Apostle of Jesus Christ through your own will or the will of certain persons or through the will of an institution, but not through a divine manifestation. Paul had gotten the divine manifestation. And it changed him. And he went through the experience. Jesus Christ said, "You must be born anew," or "Born from within." And we're not born from within when we change our emotions. When we change our emotions we change our emotions, we don't change the deeper part of our being. We still are inconsiderate of other people. The drunkard reforms and runs around and yells at everybody else, "You miserable sinners." This is not rebirth. This is a new change of emotion. He gets rid of one set of emotions; he has another.

We'll have to refer to this all along, that the psychic world in which you go is a world full of emotions, of different kinds of emotions. Now we're getting caught in that world and because we re caught in that world which we possibly haven't discovered before, we find the psychic world is objective as well as subjective, and we think we've come to the end of the road. We've hardly begun.

"...to that congregation of God which is in Corinth, having been sanctified in the Anointed Jesus. Any by those who constitute the holy ones who invocate the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place...."

Now, we must give one thing consideration; those people that run around yelling "Hare Krishna" at least do it in every place; at least they have a verbal connection with a Krishna. But we have this opportunity to have not a verbal consideration, but a real one. Now I have something which is sort of anti-obsession. We sing all kinds of hymns, and I've got these hymns which confuse the Jewish, Christian, and Islamic sacred phrases. All banged up together, and I never know which sacred phrase is going to come out first.

And I've found this is true of those who live with me. Except, I can almost predict--it seems almost humorous--that those who are born Jews are using Jesus Christ, and those who are born Christian are using Arabic phrases, if not Mohammed. And I'm sure if Arabs come in the house they would probably be using Jewish phrases. And does it matter? We have a beautiful hymn about every man living under his own vine and fig tree and there shall be war no more. This is something you dare not sing in the White House.

This is the revolution they are afraid of. Nobody's afraid of Karl Marx or the so-called left-wing people or these Weathermen. They're slight nuisances like mosquitoes, and we just haven't found a DDT to get rid of them. But when people really know something, then they're fanatics and that's it. Well, I tell you, someday the fanatics are going to change our society. Fanatical, meaning people who really believe what they say they believe. I'm sure Paul was one of that kind. I think he made himself a nuisance to everybody. But he lived on, and those to whom he was a nuisance, you don't even know their names or anything about them; they passed away. They passed away and are gone.

"I give thanks to God always concerning you, for that favor of God which has been imparted to you in the Anointed Jesus."

In science when you use terms, you go to the laboratory and give them a chance to test and find out the truth. And we're going to do it, and I think we are doing the same thing, in religion. You're going into a laboratory, so to speak, and finding it out. And you'll find it is true. And when it is true, you will know. Then you will follow in a certain way on a path, which is Pauline in a sense. Not doctrinal Pauline, but psychologically Pauline. You will have a visit from the Lord Jesus Christ which is so real that you can never go back to your old ways. And when this happens, religion will be reborn. Religion itself is being reborn today and becoming effective in lives.

At the time they had the riots down at Hunter's Point, a few silly nincompoops from this place went down there and everything was peaceful. Everybody on all sides spoke to them, the whites, the blacks, the cops and the newspapermen. They were far weaker than most, but that's the way it is. With that small degree of Christ in them, they were able to do that! Really able to do it. And the news I get now is that the same thing is going on today--that even a little bit of what has been called spiritual leaven, just a little bit, starts to work, to work out. And when this is the case, all this that looks like ancient literature becomes a reality here and now and today. "God so loved the world."

And he still loves it just as much as he always has loved it. A great Sufi Saint said, "Allah is your lover, not your jailer."

But we don't express love by some of the methods which are now used to express it. Because some of the words that Jesus used, or the Greek parallel, is not the same as the English "love," which covers all kinds of multitudes of sins and virtues, all in the same word. Oh, there are a lot of words like that with scores of meanings. Recently, there was a man in the House of Love and Prayer, a Jewish mystical gathering really. One man was going around grabbing hold of all the girls and saying this was a house of love and prayer. What he called love, I assure you...well...tigers have more respect for each other.

"Faithful is God, by whom you were invited into the Fellowship of his son, Jesus Christ, our Lord. Now I entreat you, brethren, thru the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there may be no divisions among you; but that you may be knit together in the same mind and in the same sentiment."

Now, this is a totally different approach from what is ordinarily given, and yet you are doing this. This doesn't mean that we have to go to the ballot box in November and vote the same ticket. It means you get into the same essence-of-mind by feeling. And how are you going to do this? By prayer and by communion. There may be other ways. I will stick to these two for the time being. But I mean by actual prayer and actual communion.

We do this all the time. Of course, this is very wrong because St. Margaret Mead, who is a saint and scientist, says it can't be done. And so she writes long articles-which everybody reads and which have nothing to them-that say it can't be done. And she is 'science'. But it is being done, and it will be done more. You know, it is said, "The family that prays together stays together." Well what is the family? If the family that prays together stays together, then the commune which prays together stays together. And the next thing we are going to have is the colony which prays together stays together. Because now on the outside I see colonies arising which will not be communistic but will be a combination of private and group ownership living in the same place united together by prayer and communion. And united by spiritual ceremonies and songs and even dances. When you see this arise, we will have a new society coming out of it, not by destruction or by killing anybody at all, but by the raising of the spirit in man. And I'm sure this is what St. Paul did.

I know one thing. St. Paul wasn't a politician; he wasn't a sociologist. I doubt whether he was an economist. I don't know whether he was trying to free the slaves or not, or doing any of those reforms which nobody thought of till 1800 years later. But he was trying to raise man from the standpoint of the spirit, and to show that man could have such experiences which bring the real freedom. The real freedom is not in having your check book balance, but in feeling that you have Life, and that every Breath brings you praise of God and makes you feel his awareness.

This is the introduction that St. Paul is giving to these people. And this is the tone of this whole epistle. If you get this tone, and study these epistles with tones, you will see it doesn't matter whether they give you the same note or not.

My friend Saul gives people medicines and some of them think the medicines are nasty, and the same medicines I think are very wonderful, to my stomach and mouth. But the thing is, are they effective? Do they cure? That is the important thing. But the scribe and pharisee culture of this land thrives on pretense. I met a very famous metaphysician and he was saying that we should greet each other with "Peace be with you." Very famous, very successful, very wealthy. He gives this long sermon, "Peace be with you." So after that, being a stranger, I wanted to see him. There's a whole line of people and they went and came out, and then when I came in and said "Peace be with you," he was shocked. It's fine for the sermon. Period.

Now this is true. I saw a publication which had the audacity to put together, "Peace be with you," "As-Salaam-Aleikhum," and "Sholum Aleicum"--three peoples. And we are doing something to bring Israelis, and Arabs together. Not important people, but we want to get them to come together.

You know, I got a letter one week. I got two letters during the same week. I don't know if you ever heard of Thomas Merton. Well, Thomas Merton had heard about me and was to come here from the Orient. And he died, so we never met. But two of his close friends wrote me letters rather surprisingly in one week, "What are you doing to bring peace in Palestine?"

I thought this was wonderful, because I had already taken the first step. And now I know what to do next, and I know fairly well what can be done. And I know where to find the Christian saints. And generally it is among the Franciscan Fathers. Although I have met a few other fathers that are Saints.

Don't come to me and expect that all Franciscan Fathers are Saints. Not even 10 per cent of them are. And maybe in this country not even 2 per cent. In some other places it is much higher. But you do find them. You do find them. And they'll work with you and you can work with them. Or, as I've been saying, we must thank both the Israelis and the Arabs. They are working assiduously for population control.

Now, the next thing is, when Paul said there be no divisions among you, he meant schismata, that kind of division. I think some of you play games in which you are opponents to each other. You play games; you don't have to hate each other; you don't have to run away. It doesn't mean divisions in that sense. I have to divide my audiences many times. For those of you who are studying Tarot, I tell you sometimes I divide them between fire and air and earth and water people. And it works out beautifully. But I mean this kind of thing where you turn against each other and argue and try to convert each other when you're not very sure of yourself. That is what is meant.

It doesn't mean having a heterodox view. If you once have a Divine view, you will never have a heterodox view. You will be called this by others, but you won't be called this by God. Some Moslems came to me once and said, "Moslems don't approve of what you are doing." I said, "I'm sure of that. But the question is whether Allah approves." That was hitting them in the face both ways. And you find when you go closer, that to win an argument they will often descend into trickery, dishonesty and all kinds of emotions. This is exactly what Paul was trying to get you beyond.

"Has the Anointed one been divided? Was Paul crucified on your behalf? or were you immersed into the Name of Paul? I give thanks to God that I immersed none of you except Crispus and Gaius. "

The thing is, he didn't go around baptising people. Today you have a whole church where they think if they dunk you in the water, God is compelled to receive you. Paul only gave the baptism to those that had the experience. And sometimes religious men ask me what authority they have. And I say, you have the authority of the examples laid before you, not the institutions. The institutions became organizations. They did not continue the examples. And when you have the examples, and only those who have had the divine vision are baptised, you'll follow in Paul's footsteps.

In the meanwhile, of course you can have the Communion. But remember, many are called and few are chosen. This doesn't mean that there's not hope. I think there is more hope, because one other thing has happened today, and that is that cosmic evolution has raised more and more human beings to a higher degree of spiritual potentiality than at any other time in the history of the world. And I think you have taken the communion seriously enough, as solemnly enough and as beautifully enough, that you really in one sense don't need very much more. Except those individual disciplines and practices which you get.

You get to the point that you damn your priest good and get ready to foot it out of the place because he's scolded you for something whether you deserved it or not. And about then you get the Light, and you're going to crawl on your knees to him. I assure you, both the damning and the crawling on the knees aren't important at all. Your experience is the most important thing.

"For the Anointed one sent me not to immerse, but to announce glad tidings; not in wisdom of speech, so that the cross of the Anointed one may not be frustrated. For this word, that of the cross, is indeed foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who are being saved, even to us, it is the Power of God."

Again, this is a variation of "Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord Thy God in vain." Paul came to give glad tidings. Not to run around and scare people; come into church with nice, crock clothes and the latest fashions and hear a sermon that somebody else is damned, and think you've reached the Kingdom of Heaven. This is nothing but delusion. You reach the Kingdom of Heaven when the Kingdom of Heaven reaches you. When you have the experience of it. You have the experience indirectly in the qualities of love, kindness, mercy, and consideration, and you have it directly when you become aware of the Light which is within you and without you.

"For it has been written, 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the learning of the intelligent.' Where is a wise man? where a Scribe? where a disputant of this age? Did not God make foolish the wisdom of this world?"

The same thing is going on at all times and it is pretty hard to avoid it--all of which I indicated in the beginning. All this nonsense about pollution by people who never studied the subject. Where DDT means devil. And nobody studies the chemistry of it, or the actual effects. Or you do what I call "Hitler's Jews": find out something, to damn and go and yell at it alone. Now what they yell at are the psychedelic drugs. I'm not going to defend psychedelic drugs, but I'm not going to oppose them either. I'm going to evaluate them in due course, so you'll know what they are. When we come to the consideration of the three bodies, we will be able to place psychedelic experiences. I want to take into consideration the various interpretations of the word 'Catholic' and the integrative, as against the analytic, approach to things, and how we are moving in and toward and with a type of brotherhood which has been preached through the ages. But we're only beginning to realize what it is.

"For when, in the Wisdom of God, the world by wisdom knew not God, God was pleased thru 'the foolishness' of this proclamation to save the believers."

You see the external things with emotions. Then, you think if you get up and emote enough--you've got something. This is not God. One place in the Bible they search for God. And He wasn't in the thunder. He wasn't in the lightning. He wasn't in the earthquake. He was in the still small voice. And I've often said this would put all the evangelists out of business. And when you come to the nature of God, you find in the end, He is absolute Silence. But this silence is not the silence of a cemetary; it's not the deadness of the night. But it's the absolute; the absoluteness of Light. And with the Light there is such tremendous beauty that the only thing left is what we might call wonder; and this is real. There's no more fear, no more negation, but sometimes there is stupefaction of wonder, and this is very real.

"And although Jews are demanding Signs, and Greeks are seeking Wisdom; yet we proclaim a crucified Christ, to the Jews, indeed, a stumbling-block, and to the Gentiles, foolishness."

In my life, I've seen some very funny things happen. I once went to a meeting where all the Jews came together to establish the universal Jewish religion. To the amazement of everybody, the Rabbi got up and said, "There will be no universal Jewish religion until we all accept Jesus Christ." That's the last thing they excepted. Of course, he had to resign. The division still remains. It is very interesting. This happened in San Francisco at one time. Yes, and I couldn't repress my laughter. I had to go and hide it under all kinds of other things.

That's why so many of the things like I write to Art Hoppe I call "not-news." If that Rabbi had gotten up and proclaimed Karl Marx, it would have been a headline, I assure you. And I assure you that the Rabbi that defended Mooney got a headline. But the Rabbi that proclaimed Jesus Christ, not a word. This is our culture. It is very amusing, and it's tragic; very amusing.

"For behold your invitation, brethren, that not many are wise according to the flesh, not many powerful, not many noble; but God selected the foolish things of the world, that he may shame the wise; and God selected the weak things of the world, that he may shame the powerful."

"In the hour ye think least the Son of Man commeth... O Bethelehem-Ephrata, out of the least of all cities, out of you will come." Years ago I wrote a poem called "The Black Christ." It never got published. It wasn't a poem in the ordinary sense. It was a series of short lyrics, and the idea was this: Jesus Christ died and went up into heaven and after a while a delegation from the Byzantine Court said: "O Lord, you have suffered so much, we want to take the suffering from you. We'll look after things. Everything will be taken care of; you don't have to worry any more. You just enjoy heaven." So they went away and Jesus was up there on the throne and nothing happened. Nobody came anymore. Nothing. He got kind of lonely, so he decided to come down and go round the earth and see who was the most fitting to represent him. And he went around from one country to another and landed in Africa. There he found a Negro running around, spending all his time singing. No matter what happened, he spent his time singing. And he manifested and gave this man his blessing and told him to represent him. And so a number of different poems were written.

Years passed, and early this year I landed in Cambridge, Mass., and there I met my Black Christ. He'd become a professional healer; never advertising and never failing. He worked hard. He found another profession which gave him a very good living, but he lived at a very low level, so he could feed all those who came to him, very quietly. And he had managed to make some soups out of roots which he claimed made the body feel very fine, and he was feeding them. I don't know if any of you knew of me a couple of years ago, but if you did you would say that today I have a louder and nastier voice, and maybe this is reflected also in some of the rest of my being.

Well, I visited him a number of times and he fixed me up good. So some of my colleagues went to him recently, because they've been making films of spiritual dances and spiritual groups in the country, and they took a lot of pictures of him. And so now "The Black Christ" has been captured in films and may be sent around the world at the right time. I don't know yet what will come of it, but it happened just like that. You see! God has the impertinence not to consult authorities when he wants to Bless somebody. That is what St. Paul said. This is what is going on now. Yes. This is true and this is very, very important. See! Very important.

"And the ignoble things of the world, and the things that are despised, God selected, and the things not existing, that he may bring to nothing existing things. So that no flesh may boast in the presence of God."

I got a letter from some Muslims. They said, "We are very proud of our ancestry." And I wrote back, "I am very proud of my Eternal Maker." You know they got so proud, I knew God was going to punish them. And during the six-day war, we knew exactly what was going to happen long in advance. We knew exactly. It wasn't pleasant. We had to watch and see. We watched and saw. We saw the Israeli army go down into the Suez Canal. PERIOD. Maybe if these people got rid of humility. They have humility on the one hand and boast of their ancestry on the other. I don't know what their ancestors did to be boastful of. They had to be punished. Anyone who is boasting now has to be punished, and will be when God gives the signal. At His time.

"This has been written; Let him that boasts, boast in the Lord."

You see! I did this without looking at the scripture. But this is the teaching. It is also the Sufi teaching. If you want to boast, boast about God, don't boast about yourself.

St. Paul appeared to the Corinthians with a message for the Corinthians, as he came to the Romans with a message for the Romans and he went to the Colossians with a message for the Colossians. Then some guy came along in 1844 and discovered, "Now St. Paul tells that those people should sit, and he told the other people to stand up and he told the other people to go to sleep. How inconsistent." And when the doctor does that, "How wonderful!"

Q.-Doctor, would you explain the term 'Sufi'; because there's many of the boys and girls who don't understand that.

A.-The word Sufi really means those who run around in wool garments. But it means those who have had God experience direct. They'd had a visitation or experience directly from God in some form or other. I was not allowed to call myself a Sufi until at least...until I don't know how many holy men said, "Yes, you have shown you have had this experience." The best was when a disciple who had this experience was my god-daughter, now living in Ithaca, New York. When you can do this and transmit this to a disciple, you have verified it.

You see, Christ was just an amateur. We've got so many world saviours today, two and three on every block. And all you've got to do is ask them one or two things and you're the devil. Ask them to show an illuminated disciple or ask them what they are doing for Viet Nam or Palestine. Or mention the existence of one of the other world saviours. I mean really, really.

"We got this man; he's the Christ of the age. He's this, this, this, this, and this. Don't you understand!" Oh, that's mild, you haven't met the Hare Krishna people. I can't imitate them. Just impossible. I'll tell you what I had the impertinence to do. One of them came up and grabbed hold of me and began his pitch, and I said, "Let go of me; I am Sri Krishna himself." And you should see them run; you should see them run.

But the Divine experience is possible and has always been possible. It never wasn't. Although I'm sure your St. Theresa and St. Francis didn't come out and call in the newspapermen. I'm going to have a Divine experience--you be around to witness.

Only some of the time you kind of know. I know sometimes it's going to happen to somebody else. But please, it means severe trial and test and when you're apparently innocent, getting a blow on the head. I know my secretary's wife left him suddenly under circumstances that ordinarily would make headlines. Of course, if it was the opposite, it wouldn't make headlines. And I went to God and asked Him, and he showed me a big picture--that my secretary was going to travel with me to Europe and meet a lot of great people. Well, when you get a picture from God, you can know it's going to happen. It took a little while, but we traveled to Europe and met a lot of great people at Geneva where the conference of all religions took place.(2) And everything went exactly the way it was in the vision. But he had to be ready for it by suffering where he was apparently an innocent man.

But there are tests you get in life. It doesn't come that you're going to get a reward. You know what it says: "Whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth." And at such times, when the innocent man suffers, I know that's the time God is going to help him. But I know it in the sense that can't be communicated. So I told you: I have a two-way line to God. You not only speak to him, but listen. And I've told you, I don't pray much, because the prayers are granted so much and the responsibility that goes with them comes with it, too. But the prayers are granted, and this is the thing. It makes one very, very cautious. Very real. And it makes me in one sense devout, although the devotion is not necessarily what we ordinarily call devotion.

Next, I'm going into such things as the word 'catholic' and what it really means. And 'wisdom' and what it really means. And 'son,' especially as used by Paul. And then I want to go into the three-body constitution of man, because this will throw light on the fact that people become aware of the psychic body through all kinds of means. They become aware of it more or less subjectively from emotional states. But they get into it objectively when they take drugs or get into dream-lives and have what we call hallucinations which are not unreal at all. Then they see the psychic world objectively, which it is. We've got to learn what all these things are, and what all this humdrum means today. That people become aware of it, so we can go through it the right way, not so we can avoid it, but to go through it the right way. In Egyptian initiations you had to go through, but you could go through the right way. We have to face this some time or other anyhow. The whole thing is, if we're going to have emotions, we can have emotions which are constructive.

Q.-I'm assuming that a person could make his breath a living prayer. (Yes, he can.) Now, if I was still at an emotional level, would that affect the effectiveness of my prayer?

A.-It would affect it, but not necessarily harmfully. It would affect it. Now I was in an airy emotion when Saul was working on my feet this morning and everything he did I began laughing. If I had been in a water emotion, everything he did, I would have been crying. And if I'd been in an earth emotion, everything would have been painful. And if it had been the fire emotion, I couldn't have sat still. "Let everything that has breath praise the Lord." Now I can quote scriptures marvelously. They come to me; I never think of them....They come to me.

Q.-Will you discuss the mechanism of emptying the cup and filling it again, please?

A.-Well, that is a difficult thing, or not, because as soon as I talk, then I'm filling the cup and it's pretty hard to empty it. To empty the cup one has to keep absolutely quiet. There are several ways of doing this in ritual. There also are ways of doing it by meditation. And when I get down at communion, there are two sides to the communion. There's the priest who has to fill the empty cups and there's the person who kneels, who has to empty himself before he can receive.

Q.-What's the grade of Apostle? What does Paul mean when he says he's an Apostle?

A.-That means he has received directly from God. He received from God through Christ, but you can't receive from God without having it made into form. You can't see unless there's a form to see. ("He says somewhere in the lecture to the Corinthians that he sets up the grades in the Order. He says first Apostles, and so forth, on down to speaking with tongues.") That's right. The best thing is to get your experiences and not start wondering. That won't help you at all. Analyzing is just the thing I'm speaking against here. Experience, yes; analysis, no.

Q.-In other words, we must integrate ourselves?

A.-Exactly. Absolutely. Absolutely.


2.THE TEMPLE OF UNDERSTANDING, second spiritual summit conference, Intercontinental Hotel, Geneva, Switzerland, March 31 -April 4, 1970.